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John C. Whitmer’s account attests to Mary Whitmer’s original testimony of the event. I think the fact that she consistently said the “old man” was named Nephi should be taken seriously. Despite the Mormon folklore about the Three Nephites the Book of Mormon attests that they are real translated beings who reside on earth to do God’s will. At that crucial point in the restoration of the gospel, wouldn’t they have been there? This would also explain why the person Mary met was an old man, rather than a perfected, resurrected being. None of the accounts left by Joseph or the three witnesses describe Moroni as an old man.
It’s not a ridiculous idea, Raymond, but there’s only ONE eyewitness who claims Mary Whitmer called the “old man” Nephi. It’s important to remind ourselves that we do not have an account from Mary Whitmer. Every account is second hand, so details must be taken with a grain of salt. David Whitmer might be somewhat of an exception since he claims to have seen Moroni in an earlier event while riding in the wagon. His own claims that the same “old man” was the person his mother met is speculative, by David’s own admission. He says “based on her description of him”, but doesn’t provide any details of this so-called “description”. The other point is that this recollection was given in the late 1870’s–decades after the event took place. Time does blur details. I think we can reliably conclude that Mary Whitmer saw Moroni. If it was Nephi, or even one of the Three Nephites, what was this personage doing with the plates? No account of regarding the plates is ever associated with any personage other than Moroni. It seems more reasonable to think that John C. Whitmer, or Mary Whitmer herself, mis-remembered the personage’s name. I’ve always wondered what happened to Mary Whitmer after the mass Whitmer excommunication in 1838. It seems like the RLDS or Whitmer family records ought to have additional information since she lived another 18 years. Did she possess the same spirit of animosity toward Joseph and other Church leaders as David and John in the wake of the excommunication? What was her opinion of the Church itself in her later years? Brother Skousen’s article here suggests there might indeed be some sources that could offer insight, but I don’t think it’s ever been made public. We can assume she retained a reasonably positive attitude about the Church since she was still apparently telling and retelling this story of Moroni after her excommunication. In fact, is it confirmed that she was officially excommunicated? Church records simply suggest that the Whitmers were excommunicated en-mass. I just wonder if any other specific information regarding Mary Mussleman Whitmer exists. Maybe, Rob Watson can help with that, since he is apparently a Whitmer descendant. I realize he is part of the Cox line, which came west with Brigham Young and remained faithful. Ever keep in touch with your distant cousins, Rob? Maybe Royal Skousen could shed light on whether that branch of the family preserved any records. I think it could be a fruitful line of research, especially with the attention that Mary Whitmer has received of late, having experienced a “witness” of the golden plates that pre-dates the Testimony of the Three Witnesses and appears otherwise identical in every way.
As I understand it, the story was passed down through the Cox line from someone in that line who received it as a story from someone in the Whitmer line. So they are also only 2nd-hand witnesses.
See http://www.oscox.org/stuff/bom.html under the heading “Mary Whitmer shown the plates”
Nice to read these notes from Carl Cox. We are both direct descendants of Orville Sutherland Cox. The stories Carl has preserved are priceless to me in tying me back to the Restoration and increasing my testimony of the Book of Mormon.
I should also add…If B.H. Roberts printed Elvira’s account in his “New Witness for God,” wouldn’t this be an older account?
We assume that Elvira Mills heard the account from Christian Whitmer’s widow, but as it was a sacred event to someone else Elvira did not feel comfortable telling it. B H Roberts would have got the account from the Whitmers’ accounts, and published it. Seeing it in print allowed Elvira to tell that interesting story again. There is no relation between B H Roberts account and Elvira’s as far as provenance is concerned.
An interesting note about this is that Christian Whitmer’s widow and husband came west, unlike the rest of the Whitmer family. Is this accurate?
Why is Moroni and old man? Is he not a resurrected being?
Maybe for the same reason that Jesus the Christ continues to keep His scars, for recognition. All things will be restored, but not as in the way of the magician, pulling the rabbit from the hat. All that is, is as it is, and the course of time and when it is necessary, all things will be in their perfect state. It is quite interesting that Jesus becomes perfected on the third day, but yet is still wears the scars put their by man. In the end, if it is needful in God’s plan that Moroni continue in an elderly state of his being, then it was and is necessary according to God.
Yes, agree. Interesting. It could also be that age is in the eye of the beholder and he wasn’t as old as described, or maybe it wasn’t Moroni.
I’m just hoping to trade in this body for a younger version some day!
Wow what a story. It all seems to have some facts that brings credibility to the events described therein. Thankyou for your research and for sharing. Myself I do not need more evidence to validate the Book of Mormon, and the truths contained there in. But it’s nice to know that more evidence is available and I will just continue to stuff it into my large vat of evidence I already. I will have to get a larger vat soon. It’s just incredible how much is out there to validate the truthfulness of that fact, the Kingdom of God has been restored to the earth.
Fun and interesting. The whole witness motif in the scriptures is fascinating.
Thanks for that historical context, Royal,
I was completely unaware of it, even though Orville Sutherland Cox and Elvira Pamela Mills are my direct ancestors, and even though my Mother was a Cox and frequently corresponded with Carl T. Cox.
Makes one wonder whether there is a family destiny bound up with the Book of Mormon.
One bit of confusion which I noticed, but which Carl corrected in his last email: It was Sylvester Hulet, rather than his late father Sylvanus, who took care of niece Elvira.
Thanks for the article Dr. Skousen.
I’m curious about a portion of the David Whimer quote. “…..But he said very pleasantly, “No, I am going to Cumorah.” This name was somewhat new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant….”
I thought that the hill the plates were buried in wasn’t commonly referred to as Cumorah until some years later? If David Whitmer’s quote is accurate doesn’t it lend weight to the view that this hill was the hill where the Nephite/Lamanite battles were fought, rather than the view of a Central American Cumorah?
Moroni never names the hill in which he buried the plates. Mormon wrote, ” I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni” (Mormon 6:6). So Mormon hid all the plates EXCEPT the abridgement he had prepared in Cumorah and Moroni didn’t hide the plates until 35 years after he great battle at Cumorah.
Yet this old man (Moroni?) in David Whitmers account states he is going to Cumorah, presumably the place where Joseph retrieved the plates. Perhaps Cumorah was never mentioned in the event but was how David remembered it decades later or perhaps Moroni was on his way to Central America?
Thank you for sharing this, Dr. Skousen.
Joseph also never gave us the name of the messenger who retrieved the plates from Harmony. The name “Moroni” has been ascribed only by assumption by later writers and historians. Also rather than eye-witness Mary being mistaken about the identity of the messenger, it is it is much more likely that Mary’s grandson (John C. Whitmer) is the one who is mistaken about the name of the messenger. Recall he corrected his grandmother’s assertion that his name was “Nephi” assuming that he knew better than she. It is not likely that such an event, unfolding the way it did, and having such a powerful effect upon her that she would have forgotten the name of the messenger. Putting all of this together with the obvious conflict regarding the appearance of the resurrected Moroni–which we learn from Joseph was nothing like Mary’s description–Joseph said his appearance was “truly like lightning,” that he was tall and impressive. So often it seems the testimony of the primary witnesses is discounted in favor of later commentators. Why? We also have the testimony of David Whitmer’s sister, Catherine Page, who prior to his departure for Harmony PA the first time, she recounted to him that the previous day she and her children had watched three strangers spread the plaster with great skill and speed. (which allowed David to leave immediately for Harmony). So in this instance we are made aware of three divine individuals… are we forgetting the critical role of the Three Nephites? Perhaps the misnamed messenger was one of them. While we do not know for certain the names of the three Nephites, we know that one of the Christ’s Apostles in the New World was named “Nephi” and it is very likely that he and his two translated colleagues (along with Moroni) each in their respective roles to fill in respect to the plates and their protection during the translation process.
Mormon, in his abridgement that we call 3 Nephi, after describing the translation of the three selected Nephite disciples, mentions that he has met and spoken with them. They were clearly aware of Mormon and Moroni’s calling to prepare and preserve the record of the Nephites. It is hard for me to imagine that, after the great destruction of the Nephites in 385 AD, that they had more important missions on the earth than to support the preservation and eventual publication of the Book of Mormon.